002 Post Show: George Carlin Documentary Pt. 2

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Hey there, documentary lovers. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Melanee Dark here with my

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co-host Jim Hudson. And this is Podumentary, a show where we deep dive, dig into and unpack

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the details of a documentary in glorious detail.

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You didn't want to be that George Carlin anymore. You want to be a different George Carlin.

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What I really was, was a rebel.

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Can't educate our young people, can't get health care to our old people, but we can

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bomb this shit out of your country, alright?

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Stand-up's the hardest thing. He did the hardest thing for the longest time.

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He was challenging society to be better.

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Life is sacred? Who said so? God? Hey, if you read history, you realize that God is

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one of the leading causes of death.

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George is still relevant. He changed comedy three or four times and he's still talking

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to us.

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Things that he was getting at were so profound to the culture.

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What would you do if you were the planet trying to defend against this pesky species?

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Oh, viruses.

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They try to divide people so that they can run off with all the fucking money.

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Bullshit is the glue that binds us as a nation.

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It's the American dream.

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Because you have to be asleep to believe it.

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Okay, so we're picking up on part two of George Carlin's American dream. And at the end of

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part one, it was a career dip for George.

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He was becoming what we were referring to as yesterday's news. And so the struggle continues

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as we begin part one.

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But he's intentional and going, wait a minute, you guys are making fun of me? I'll show you.

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I mean, that's now his objective is to.

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Yeah.

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Look, I've been holding back for the kids' safety. I'm not doing that anymore. You guys

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are you guys are hidden below the belt. So I'm going all in.

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And it seems to me in terms of his comedy that the gloves being off for him, taking

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his critical width, which was aimed previously at hypocrisies without a lot of weight to

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them. Words.

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Yeah.

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Et cetera. And driving them over toward weighty issues, politics, social issues. Right. So

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that's kind of the same, his same energy, his same tone, but just really honed in these

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places. Yeah. But he is struggling badly in his personal life at this point. He's going

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off on drug binges when Brenda got out of the hospital and was sober. She insisted that

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drugs no longer come back to the house. And so he could not bring drugs or do drugs in

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the house, which again, fascinating. He kept the promise like he didn't. He disappeared.

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Right. He did the Spencer Tracy, as we call it. Oh, I didn't know that as we call it in

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the drug world. We're going to have to talk about that off the list. The question for

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you. Yeah. There are points where George Carlin is actually narrating the documentary. Yeah.

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How did they do that? Was there supposed to be a documentary in his life that he was a

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part of? You know, was it for something else? Do we know?

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We don't. I'm sure they do. It seems to me because there was so much audio and video

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of them speaking about their lives. I have to believe that they must have had some idea

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that they were going to put something like this together. I mean, remember he had a,

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he had a project that I forget what it was called, but about the animated George Carlin.

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Yeah. And he had to scrap it because is that upcoming? It's right. It's part of this section.

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Oh, I'm sorry. No, I thought that was in the previous, but go ahead. No, you brought it

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up and it's a good thing to talk about during this time of struggle. He actually had a project

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that he called the animated George Carlin and he was excited about it. He talked about

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it on shows. However, he never actually succeeded in raising the funding for it. And so every,

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all of the pre-production costs, including, you know, paying people salaries to work on

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the pre-production part, he was just paying with no forward momentum or movement toward

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an actual delivery of a product. And he did it for three years, which is wild. It's not

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cheap. I want to interview the people who were paid by George Carlin for three years

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to do nothing. And how do we not get a job? That's what I want to know. One of the headlines

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of his irrelevancy caught my eye. George Carlin has fallen between the wisecracks.

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I loved that. It was a headline. I loved that. That was a great, I wanted to look that one

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up and see who wrote that. Cause that is a copy ready goal. His record sales were dropping.

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So also he, not only was he, you know, this money was sort of bleeding out toward this

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animated George Carlin project that was just a pipe dream at this point. His record sales

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are also dropping because comedy records were falling out of vogue at that time. And then

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to top it off, apparently he didn't pay us taxes for three years. And then, you know,

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it comes out that he was supporting three families and they list out his own family,

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his grown daughter's family and his brother, which is sweet. I mean, I actually, when I

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found out that he was, when they mentioned that he was supporting his brother, I don't

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know, that was sweet. It's very codependent by the way, the little theme, but, but very

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sweet money was never a driver for him. Yeah. He wanted it to have it as he sat on a plane,

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but it never, you don't feel that theme. It wasn't the thing ever. Right. Right. Yeah.

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Prince wanted to be the first artist to get a million dollars in album. Right. That was

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never a land, a benchmark for him. And so he wanted to be authentic and he wanted to

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be seen as he was. Correct. And he, and yeah, he wanted to leave his voice, right. Which

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he certainly, certainly did. Yeah. So to the fact that he's not good with it or dishing

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it out to loved ones, right. A surprise. And at this point, let's just take a beat to acknowledge

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the fact that he is only 45 years old at this point, which is wild. It's younger than both

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of us put together. We're very young, put together. He's 45 years old. And at this point

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at 45, one of the things that happens to him is he has a DUI, like he has a crash under

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the influence goes through the windshield and is injured. And then not too long after

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that starts to experience chest pains at a Dodger game and almost dies. It's like 1982.

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Yeah. I was starting to have an anxiety attack. He was talking about that or actually it's

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his manager. Right. And how he's stretching his chest at 45, which, okay. So let's, I

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mean, really is age a factor when you've done that much cocaine for that long? I don't think

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it is right. You've done it. You got to hurt your family history of hard. Right. And you've

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abused that organ with the kinds of drugs that do abuse that organ. So, but this seems

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to be interestingly, and you know, this is a little side note, a real moment for him,

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a wake up call for him. Like he, it seems to me, they don't really talk about how he

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got off drugs. They don't discuss the manner in which he left drugs behind as a result

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of this scare, but it appears by the rest of the documentary that he does at that point.

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He's done. It like wakes him up. He gets serious. And that's, that's that. We don't really see

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drugs as a continued struggle or theme. It's out. Yeah. She's sober. She's sober. It's

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which is wild. Do you see that? You just don't see that switch. Right. If only we all were

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like that. Right. We wouldn't have a problem. 45. I better stop. Um, which now this is then

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sets the scene for what is his comeback. And that comes initially in the form of his very

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first cable special at a time when cable specials for comedians weren't a thing. Yeah. Was that

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one of the first? It was one of the first and in Carnegie hall of no less, you know,

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no less. So he's going, you know, he's been struggling. He, he works really hard on this

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material and puts together this show and it is a hit. And I forgot to mention the fact

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that it's also better for him financially and from his own individual perspective, because

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it's the first time his own production company is producing it, which is he and Jerry Hamza,

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who is one of the producers of this documentary. Um, and he basically speaks to the fact that

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then they maintain ownership over material and things like that. Um, when they're producing

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it themselves. And this is where he writes and I don't, I know, I know that you're not

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really a, uh, or weren't really a big Carlin fan, but I will say I 100% have such a clear

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memory of the first time I heard the stuff routine, more stuff, take your stuff, small

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stuff. I roared at that. I remember seeing this special and just the perspective on what

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seems so banal, which is our things and the way he exploded it into material that just,

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just cascaded like from level to level. He just kept, it was the stuff and that stuff

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filled like 20 minutes of a bit, which is impressive. Yeah. I, I had never heard it

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and this is the first time I heard just a portion of it in this documentary. And I even

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wrote agreed with a place for my stuff. Uh, I romanticized staying away from home, but

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I always miss my stuff. Even if I don't use it, it's so true. And, and when hearing it,

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I can understand it's, it's a lure because it's so spot on. Yeah. And the way he really

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impacts and examines our relationship to it and just is so funny about it. And even the

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turn of phrase where he says, you ever notice that their shit is, or their stuff is shit

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and your shit is stuff. Even just that, that seems like it's about stuff, but what it really

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is about is the way that we are not hard on ourselves and are hard on others. And we're

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not really holding ourselves to account for the sameness. And really that's lives underneath

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this, like what seems like a banal bit, but it really is calling out the hypocrisy, like

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our own hypocrisy and even including himself in on that, right. That scrutiny, which I

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really, I really loved. Well, it hit me because I crashed at your place last week and I crashed

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at friends house over the weekend and I missed my stuff stuff. I don't use, right. But it's

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not there. And listen, I have a real problem. In fact, my therapist gave me a hard time

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about it. You know, I mean, you'll see how many bags do I have in the room today. I have

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such a need for the comfort of very specific stuff that lines up with how my experience

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is going to go that I am weighted down with bags of stuff all the time. And I can't give

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it up as much as it's been brought up to your point. I'm at a beautiful home right now,

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staying here while we're recording this. And I brought my own stuff to make coffee, even

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though they have a Keurig in the, in the place. I just can do it. So yes, I think we both relate

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to that. Um, and, and interestingly, so here's a period where they then talk about the comedians

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of that day and Kinnison is one of them. I never was a Kinnison fan. I mean, I thought

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he was so hilarious. You did. Okay. I just, and I think for me, screaming, I can't do

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anything. He did it so, he did it so spot on. I didn't get into the whole Jessica Hahn becoming

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a heavy metal guy. Yeah. That's when I don't get that. But I thought, yeah, his stuff that

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I still listen to, I still laugh about it. Listen, and empirically, I understand why

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he's popular and why he was good at what he did. So it's brilliant. And back to school.

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Never saw it. Oh, it's Ronnie Dangerfield. Never saw it. I was not a fan of Ronnie Dangerfield.

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Oh, trouble. I know. Sorry. Um, no, I, so they, they bring up Kinnison and they bring

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up what Kinnison was doing and it was, it was new and it was groundbreaking and it was

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so its own thing. And he really had a respect for what Kinnison was doing. And instead of

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feeling deflated by it, which I do love, this is a repeated theme in him. I think a lot

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of people we live by comparison and we let other people's success or like the way that

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they're shining this specific way, make us feel bad about ourselves. I do it daily. He

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did not. And I love this about him. He's like, I'm going to use that guy as inspiration for

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what I'm about to do next is I'm going to use him to challenge myself to rise up and

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maybe even beyond what this guy is doing. Cause he had such faith in himself, like this

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faith that he knew I have it in me to keep going. I have it in me to evolve to something

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even better, even though he had already hit other heights where a lot of people would

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say my time's done. Cause he was an older guy. Yeah. 45. Yeah. Yeah. Not that old. Um,

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so he aimed his sort of, and you know, we brought this up, he aimed his critical wit

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at society's hypocrisy. He really took the gloves off. And, um, and then I think this

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is funny too, because at this, at this time, while he's renewing himself and really deciding

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to be himself, he tries TV again, which felt like a little bit of a regression, right?

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Oh, his TV show. Yeah. His TV show. Now I get that he, I get that he, all right. So

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I do have some stuff. It's interesting that, you know, they show Kinnison and they have

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him singing cherry pie on our Senio. I don't, I didn't get that transition. You don't remember

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that? I don't tell me like say, explain it. Some song about a cherry pie. Who, who's singing

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it behind the keyboard is George Carlin. Right. Okay. He's subject of the documentary. Right.

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Okay. So, okay. So, okay. I know what you're talking about. So Kinnison, right? There's

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Kinnison. He does the hungered kids in the desert, which is a brilliant bit. Sorry. And

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then they do, they show this clip of George Carlin singing a song at the piano and playing

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the piano on our Senio. I gotta be honest. And he sounds like John Cale. And I just didn't

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understand what that was. Yeah. It didn't make sense. Right. Was that him being cutting edge?

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He's singing about a piece of cherry pie. Well, I was like, is he humanizing himself?

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I'm not sure what's happening here. Like, are we just supposed to be touched by the

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fact that George Carlin is playing the piano? I couldn't figure out what it was. So he's

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multiple multi-talented. I guess. But what was the song? I don't even know. Is it a,

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was he like mocking a heavy metal song? I don't, I don't know. Oh, I didn't even think

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about that. Maybe. I don't know. I just, honestly, it was so lost on me. I just kept going because

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I was just, I don't know what that is. But then I put, you know, the, the standup special

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that Bill Burr went to. Right. I mean, that was so poignant for today. And what, you know,

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he talks about a nim, he talks about Nimbys. Right. Not in my backyard. Right. Well, and

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I did love the, the point. So, so what happens here is Bill Burr is being interviewed. He

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talks about how he and his friends were going to a Carlin, they had bought tickets to a

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Carlin show with the express purpose of mocking Carlin, of laughing at him. Right. Not at

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his jokes, but as himself in this outdated model of comedy. And instead they're blown

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out of the water by what he's doing. But as they were showing that standup special and

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just how raw he was. And then I was thinking back to the clean Carlin. It's like, man,

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these are two completely different transitions of the same man. It's amazing. And better,

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just better in his honesty. Right. Just really transcends what the pop culture is. He's now

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talking about what we're, I feel we're living in today. So if he came out today, he'd be

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hitting on every note. Oh, I wish you like, there's so much, all of this, the fodder for

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Carlin and, and at some point W. Kamau Bell says, you know, Lenny Bruce is what he is

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like a legend, but we're not quoting him today in reference to society and what's happening.

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Right. But that TV show that he tried, it was his own show. I don't remember it at all,

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but I will say it was in 93. I went back and looked it's 93. You and I were, was it on

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Fox wild in 93? I don't know. I have no recollection. Cause it looked like kind of a home improvement

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type wannabe. Probably. Yeah. There was no way I was going to touch Gary Shanley. No

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memory of it whatsoever. I was working at Fox TV at the time. And so I kinda, I don't

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know if it was on Fox. I just remember it having no interest in, no interest in wanting

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to see it. And right. Is that when you took me to the rap party for in living color? Yeah.

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Oh wow. That's crazy. Um, at Prince, at Princess club vertigo, wasn't that what it was called?

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I believe, I believe it was Princess club. Remember Magic Johnson was there. Yeah. I

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have such memories of that. Rubbin' elbows. I bet you that, I bet you that Jennifer Lopez

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was there. She was a fly girl. Right. Oh gosh. Rosie Perez. Rosie Perez. Was she a fly girl?

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She was their choreographer. Oh, that's right. That's right. What a trip. God, that was a

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thousand. I wonder if George Carlin was there. Come on. Why wouldn't he? Wasn't he living

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in LA at the time? What are we talking 90? Yeah. That was a weird neighborhood. I still

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drive past that building every now and then and think, wow, this is a weird place to book

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love. What is it now? Well, it's just as you head into downtown. I mean, what is that building

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now? I don't know. It's not a script. Anyway, that'll be our next podcast covering Princess

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will be gotten former class. Was it, it was called vertigo. Was it? I think that's sounds

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right. I could be totally wish we can look that up. Tweet us. Um, okay. So he returns

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to stand up. This TV show fails. He's actually, that's bittersweet to him because the truth

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is he wasn't happy. Yeah. But what's he going to say? Oh, I'm miserable. I kind of felt

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that was a little bit disingenue. Well, no, cause they talk about the fact that the reason

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he was not to go on the road is because he wanted to spend time with Brenda and, and

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he was working 14 hours a day. And I think that they, they talk about this with intention

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because it's at this point that Brenda starts to have some health issues. And I think that

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that's part and parcel of why, right? He is wanting to be home, wanting to spend more

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time with her. They basically start to show journals and calendars where he's writing

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in these are his entries where he's writing in, you know, Brenny's gallbladder scan, Brenny's,

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you know, and the fact that with each note, it's not looking good. It's not looking like

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it's just a gallbladder, this or just a gallbladder that. And in fact, um, it turns out to be terminal

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liver cancer, which is a blow, right? That is correct. Yeah. And I really loved the fact

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that they opened this part of the documentary with his, you know, he's accepting some sort

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of award and he's given a speech and really she is the total focus of it. And he's really

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just giving her all the credit for being, um, such an amazing partner and really just

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the bedrock of what his career was built off. But they show his, that reward acceptance

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before they let us know that she has terminal cancer. Yes. I just doubled back a little.

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Right. But I think it was done well because had they done reverse, it would look like

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he was only doing that because he knows her time left is short. But he was giving that

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speech at a pure gratitude. She could, whether she was healthy or ill or otherwise, he knew

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the truth that he was there because of her. And you kind of go back to their daughter's

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early thing where he, she really says like they were a team. Yeah. His, and so very sad,

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um, that she's now sick. He moves into a space of denial and, um, which is common, right?

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That's not, I think that's just, I think, I think we all do that to some degree either

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by about our own, uh, medical problems or other people's, um, and, and while she's,

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you know, not well, he goes on a 10 day tour that was already booked. Um, but he, and,

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and I believe in, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that he has a book coming out. And

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so the tour exists as a way to give lift to this book that's about to, so he feels like

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he can't cancel it because he's got this book publish coming up, brain dropping, brain droppings.

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That's right. Thank you for that. Um, and so he goes, which I honestly, of course, you

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know, hindsight being 2020 and you're just outside of it. I was like, what? I mean, I

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couldn't imagine that anybody's, you know, if you, anybody that you love is terminal.

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That means that every moment between now and whatever that day is, that's it, right? You've

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got this finite thing. So that's a pretty, that's commitment to career, but it's also

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pretty strong denial that you're like, I'm off for 10 days in a time where it's all rapidly

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winding up. Sorry about that. Um, okay. So while he's on the tour, they call him to come

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back because they're saying they don't think she'll make it. I couldn't get a sense of,

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um, the timing of all of this. Um, was it day two or day seven? I couldn't, I couldn't

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understand how long you've been gone. A and B I couldn't understand if he made it. They

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don't really say that he makes it in time before she passes. And it made me wonder if

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that was intentional. Like if they didn't talk about, because it's, it's, it's Jerry

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Hamzer who says, you know, I don't know if he was there in time to see her before she

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passed, but I do know that he took a Kleenex and wiped a tear from her eye and held onto

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that Kleenex until the day he died, which was also very sad and very poignant. So would

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it be as sad as he was near moments away? Yeah, I just saw myself that they didn't,

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the body had not been touched potentially. I just, um, like maybe he made it. She's still

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there, but she's gone. You know, I, I've definitely been a part of somebody's passing from cancer

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and, um, he passed and then we spent about the next six or seven hours with people kind

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of coming in and out before we made decisions about the next sort of phase of where he was

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going. So you just, I just don't know. I just thought it was interesting that they don't,

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I think he might've missed it because they don't mention any kind of ex, what the experience

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was to be reunited with her or to see her or, right. They really don't touch on that.

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So it makes me wonder if maybe she was already gone. Um, I would say he was moments away.

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Probably. I would agree with that. And it was really, she died on mother's day, which

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is crushing from a kid's perspective. Um, and I just, gosh, I just, they were telling

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the story about how he just came in and was holding her hands and saying like, Oh, Brandy,

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Oh, Brandy, like, Oh, it was heartbreaking. Just really tugged at my heartstrings and,

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um, that he said we drove every mile of this country together, you know, just imagine too,

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you see, you know, you see the country with a person every single time you go a new place.

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It's like that person was there with you. Like, so there's memories of her everywhere,

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and that every place you go, you're confronted with. Yeah. Just tough. Really tough. Um, that

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brings us into what I have in my notes called kind of the final act. Um, and that brings

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him in, it really brings him into this phase of his life post the death of his wife, where

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you see, um, you know, a lot of darkness kind of link into his perspective really that the,

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you know, his pessimism is kind of grizzled into something a little harsher, I would say.

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And his philosophy to that point is, you know, let go of the hope for a good outcome for

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the human experiment and disconnect from that and relate to it as an observer, which is

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a little Buddhist. I'll say it's not, that's not totally bleak. There's a, that's a Buddhist

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philosophy, right? It's impermanent, embrace impermanence and let go of expectation. Um,

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but and we'll get to that because that does get darker. So it's not quite dark there.

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And they talk about his health struggles, right? That they continue. He's in and out

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of his thin as a rail. So thin. Yeah. And he's really struggling. His heart issues are

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getting and he's missing shows. He's in and out of doctor's appointments and quite frankly,

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lonely. He was a guy who, as much as he was a misanthrope and as much as he really enjoyed,

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um, just being with his family or whatever, he really did need a counterpart, it seems.

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And let me just tell you, so this is going to bring me to around this era, like around

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this time of his life, I had a George sighting, um, in the cuckoo Rue on Wilshire and Santa

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Monica. I went in to go get food. I was in line to order. Um, and in he breezes, he breezes

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and they all knew him and he goes around to the side and they're, hi, they're all greeting

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him. Hi, George. Hi, George. And they hand him his order and out he goes. And he's like,

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he's given smiles and hellos to everybody as he's going in and out. And I remember thinking,

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Oh my God, that's George Carlin. Yeah. So that was my, that's my one brush with George

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Carlin in my actual, was he actually saying hi to people? Oh yeah. He's been very sweet.

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Was his voice loud? No, he wasn't being loud. Remember that one time, were you with me when

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we saw Lou Ferrigno in the, yes, we were together and he didn't even wait. He just said, yeah,

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I know I'm a star. I'm not bad mouthing Lou Ferrigno. Of course not. I'm just saying that

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he didn't have time to acknowledge if we acknowledged him or not. He just assumed we did. Was George

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doing the same thing? The vibe that I got was that he was a regular and he was behaving

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like a regular and he was getting a little extra love because he's George Carlin. So

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they all like, they were ready for him. They had his order ready and they were all, as

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he came in, they were all sort of, helloing him from behind the counter and he was helloing

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them back. So it wasn't patrons as much as it was the workers. They knew him. So you

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could tell he'd been, he'd gone in there a lot. So if the camera adds 10 pounds, how

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skinny was he in the kookaroo? And shouldn't he be more to Taco Bell or Jack in the Box

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to get some weight going?

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He actually looked, he just looked like himself. I didn't notice him being gaunt. I just noticed

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him being older and just super excited that I was having a Carlin sighting. Sure. I never

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had one. Breathe in the same air. You know, I didn't meet him, but I mean, cause I think

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you and I can agree. And when you, when you live in Los Angeles, there's this unspoken

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rule that because they live here that you don't bother them. Like it's, there's no,

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you don't get excited or, I mean, you might get excited, it depends on who it is, but

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you don't actually bother them. I can't, in fact, the only famous people I've ever bothered

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was Al Franken. And God, I think that's it. I think Al Franken might be it. But generally

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I just let them sort of be at a distance. And I feel like that's kind of like, if you're

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a townie, it's kind of how you navigate.

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I just don't do it cause I'm too shy to do it. It's not any unwritten rule. Well, you're

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wrong. Oh, well, it may exist. I'm not going to adhere. I'm like George Carlin. So his

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heart issues are ramping up and I mean, his health struggles continue rather. And, and

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he's, you know, this isn't a time of loneliness and, and his friends are talking about how

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he really just really didn't need someone to share his whole life. He had shared the

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George Carlin-ness of his life. Right. And he needed that. And lo and behold in walks,

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Sally Wade, a woman he met in a bookstore. They were the only two in the bookstore. What

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did you think about the fact that he said, I loved this. I thought this was super honorable.

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He said, I'm going to call you in eight months, which will be the year Mark since I lost my

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wife and stuck to it. Like it, this is a person who has so little ability, like there's areas

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of his life where his self-control is non-existent, right? You're on a plane, on a tarmac with

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cocaine on the one, but on the other hand, you're making choices in your career that,

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that pose great risk. This is similar to me where you meet someone, you click, you don't

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get out of fear, jump at this potential thing and risk. Cause you don't, it's like if you're

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fear-based, you're thinking, I can't believe it. I met somebody that I like and wow, she

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seems like me too. And I don't want to miss out on this. Like I don't lose this person.

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So I'm going to capitalize on it now. Timing be damned. He never operates that way.

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But maybe he should have, right? It's a little bit hypocritical of him because it seems quite

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ritualistic in the sense that he's going to wait. She's dead, right? She's gone. Right.

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But you have a child days, eight months, a child. You're thinking how old is the child

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at this time? It doesn't really matter. Eight less months. You got to spend with the second

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love of his life. I will say it does matter. I'll disagree with you in terms of age because

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your child is still having a grieving experience. That's upset the dynamic of her world, which

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is my parents are no longer clandestine and have the daughter not noticed. Keep it low.

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Yeah. At the end of the day, it is what it is. It is what it is. I just really, I thought

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it was yet another example of him having like understanding what was what he needed and

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going, there might be risks and I might lose things. This is what I need. That's a good

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point. So he's like, I'll come back to you in eight months and did. And he did circle

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back. Thankfully he was around for at least another eight months. And her too. Like she

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could have been in a couple, like in a couple hood, like he could have been in those relationships

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if I remember correctly. I'm just trying to take a position here. Uh, other than I, my

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knee jerk reaction is no great to you. That's admirable man. He knows what he wants and

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he's, but he's also going to be respectful of others and wait the eight months. But I'm

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trying to look at it from a different way. What, why, right? Let's take the daughter

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out and affecting the daughter just, but I think he still would, I think he still would

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have done it in respect to his past wife, whether there was a daughter there or not.

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Right. Either way that that's position. Maybe he was honoring his grieving process. Maybe.

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And then I would then, but if you go from the life is short, seize the day. Why not

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start right there and do the live with her for two weeks like he did with this first

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love of his life. Yeah. And maybe he just, I mean, honestly, I think it could have been

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prudent because the truth is you might not have what, what a relationship needs. You

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don't have it in your grieving. If you're still sort of, if I've been with somebody

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for 30 years and they just died, I really don't have, I can't be a great partner to

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you at first. Totally agree. Yeah. So, but, but, but he, but he was doing it based on

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an anniversary, not on a time to heal. Interesting. Any, that he called it right. He's like, I'll

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be good in eight months and was, um, so he, he's ramping up to another HBO show at this

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point. HBO seems to be, um, his, you know, preferred that was where his first cable show

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was. And, um, his daughter said she hadn't seen him in about three months, which is also

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interesting. They were both, I believe they were both Los Angeles at the time, but you

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know how life goes. And she said she went into seeing before this HBO show and she was

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shocked at how shrunken and puffy he was and that he was struggling to breathe. Did you

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notice that too? I noticed in his face that there was a lot of his face was really filled

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out toward the end. I thought it might be steroids or something. Yeah. Right. Um, I

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thought it fit him well. And listen, if this is a person that she's saying she watched

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him up close, struggled to breathe, then they go into the clip of him. He's performing at

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that, at a high energy level for a guy who was not feeling great and like really struggling

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and still was showing up, you know, just honestly a performer to the end, right? Like just such

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a performer, but his comedy went really dark at the end. Like he was saying things like,

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you know, what makes me happy watching my species destroy itself and tune into my next

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show. It's called fuck hope. And Colbert even says at this point, he lost me at the end.

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And it's because it just went too bleak, too dark. And I think people sort of notice. I

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like that he was, he said that on a documentary and homage to this person and that the makers

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of this documentary kept it in. I thought that, I thought that was, yeah, that he was

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honest about this pivot didn't work for him, right? Didn't judge it as right or wrong.

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It just, it was too much for him. It's too much. And he took his comedy into a place.

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I think the truth is when we get, when the, when it's not as much of a joke anymore, like

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hyper hyperbole is funny when it's got some distance from the truth, right? When there's

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a little truth baked in, but if you really take it to the extreme, it's it's funniest

378
00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:51,440
because you are aware of the distance between it and what's real. I think as he got older,

379
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,600
that bleakness was an actual perspective that then loses a little bit of this funny cause

380
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,880
it's not hyperbole, right? You're really there. You're in that spot going fuck hope. Then

381
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,000
it's not as funny anymore. You're just like, you know, that's just how you're seeing things.

382
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,800
Um, so that's kind of where I, my brain, I noodled a little bit on it.

383
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:15,640
I mean, what, you know, he avoided shock his whole career, right? I mean, he didn't need

384
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:21,800
it because he was just so intelligent and so such a good wordsmith that saying what

385
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:28,920
he said, he didn't need to resort to shock. You think at the end, because of his tiredness

386
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:34,280
and age, maybe that was, he was now just going to shock people in his last.

387
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,600
Potentially. Or maybe, I mean, honestly, as he's been somebody who clearly kept revealing

388
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,560
himself as he went along.

389
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,280
But they even say he didn't want all his species to kill each other and he didn't want hope

390
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,280
to be fucked.

391
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,720
Well, I think it depends though, right? Cause they say, she says he didn't mean that. He

392
00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:54,120
didn't want to see people kill each other. And then they cut to Jerry Hamster who knew

393
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,200
him his whole career. And he said, Oh, he absolutely wanted that. I think it depends

394
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:05,800
the lens. What I loved about that moment and those two opposite perspectives on him is

395
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:11,360
we're kind of defined by the people defining us, right? There's to some degree, the truth

396
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:18,160
of who we are is very much affected by who's telling it. And I loved the fact that she

397
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,320
immediately was like, Oh, he didn't love that. He did not love seeing, you know, the species

398
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,560
killed self. And Hamster was like, Oh, he loved it. He absolutely loved it. It's just interesting

399
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,880
to me.

400
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:37,600
And I wanted to, I wondered what you thought. Well, let me tell a little bit back. I loved

401
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,920
this line that there's a lot of him talking about his political perspective and the way

402
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:52,140
he sort of views where we're at. And he says, we're led to feel free by the exercise of

403
00:36:52,140 --> 00:37:01,680
meaningless choices. And I really thought about now and today and how much we have in

404
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:08,480
the world that is at our fingertips to decide about and how we struggle about our access

405
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,440
to decide about really pivotal and important things. And that was how many years ago that

406
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,680
he said that. And it's, you know, in so many ways it's true.

407
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,520
The whole ending, I think is intentional to show that what he was saying in his last years

408
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,680
are more poignant now than they were when he was saying it.

409
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:31,560
Yeah, I think you're right. And this is so we're winding up towards the end, obviously,

410
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,240
his last show. I mean, honestly, I was struck by the fact that his mind is still as sharp

411
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:39,640
as ever, but he looks exhausted. He looks so tired.

412
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,000
It was still sharp as a knife.

413
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,760
His eyes. What I noticed is, is really like his eyes were really hooded and he just really

414
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,640
looked tired, but he was just, God, he was so sharp. And then his daughter is really,

415
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,960
she really, they wrapped the documentary up with her talking about her last call with

416
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,400
him. And I just, I really, I got emotional when I was watching this part because I just

417
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:05,720
thought what a gift it was. She talks about calling him and how he never picks up, never

418
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:09,800
picks up his phone, but he happened to. And then she said it was a couple of days before

419
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:16,440
he passed and he picked up the phone and she said that, you know, in terms of the conversation,

420
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:21,960
they met each other in this place that they had never met each other before. And that,

421
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:27,200
you know, she really said to him, I went back to Hawaii. I went to the place where I drew

422
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:32,840
up the treaty and I let it all go. And, you know, they don't point at any of her issues

423
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,320
that she clearly, I mean, you'd have to come away with, you know, issues that you, you

424
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,360
know, with your parents as you live that life with them. And it's so fraught with so many

425
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,880
things. They don't really go heavy into that. And, you know, that's probably a choice, but

426
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,020
she really nods to it there, right? Which is that between them, there's this thing and

427
00:38:49,020 --> 00:38:53,240
probably between both parents before Brenda died, you know, the thing that exists between

428
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:56,720
you and your parents, when you're struggling with the things that they're, the ways that

429
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:03,760
their decisions and behaviors landed on you. And that she says to him, you know, I let

430
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:09,080
it all go. I let it all go. And it's okay. Like everything's okay. And she says, you

431
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:15,080
know, she unburdened them essentially both. She unburdened them both of those years of

432
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,480
what that dysfunction had done to her and to their relationship. And that he was emotional

433
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:25,240
and, you know, cried. Imagine that being like your last call with your parent before you

434
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:32,040
lose them is just really touching, really, really touching. My own, you know, my father

435
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:38,440
passed away really suddenly when I was 34. I had my own experience where I hadn't seen

436
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,160
him. I'd missed his birthday. I was out of town. I was in Vegas of all places, which

437
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,560
I hate. But his, you know, his birthday had happened over the weekend. I didn't get to,

438
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:52,120
you know, go over and have dinner or anything with him during the week. Earlier I got back,

439
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,280
my friend's mother had passed away on that Monday. And so I got really wrapped up in

440
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:01,240
that, like helping my friend and dealing with that. Then I finally got home from helping

441
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,360
her and was really like behind, oh, I got to clean. I got to do all these things. And

442
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,320
I thought about my daddy at the time I was living close to him. And so his office was

443
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,160
just around the corner. And I thought, oh gosh, I should go see my dad because I haven't,

444
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,360
I missed his birthday. And then my next thought was just, I can't look at, I looked around

445
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,200
my house. I was, there's so much to do. I was gone. I got to unpack. I got to do laundry.

446
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:26,600
I got to do these dishes. I started to do the dishes and I don't even remember changing

447
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,680
my mind. I have no, I couldn't tell you what changed my mind. I just stopped doing the

448
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,280
dishes, dried my hands, picked up my keys, got in my car and drove to my dad's office.

449
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,520
And I have no, I have recollection of deciding not to go see him. I don't have any recollection

450
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:46,160
of changing my mind. I just suddenly found myself doing it. And my father, who was a

451
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,560
chiropractor almost never, if I walked into an office, he was almost always in a treatment

452
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:56,960
room. Very rarely would I luck out and he was between patients. And least of all in

453
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,760
his office, which is in the back. I walked through the back door. He was sitting at his

454
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:05,040
office, sitting at his desk in his office. I was thrilled and we greeted each other and

455
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:10,780
he said, hello daughter. We got up, we hugged. And he told me a funny joke. Like he kind

456
00:41:10,780 --> 00:41:16,240
of commented on some lady that was upfront and he laughed and like made like a grab it.

457
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:20,920
He had a bunch of hickeys and he was like, he made kind of like a funny noise and, and

458
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,400
walked off just laughing at his own joke. And I, in that same way, I really connected

459
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,080
to where she says how lucky she felt because he picked up the phone and he doesn't. Like

460
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:36,040
I got, I lucked out. I followed this moment, went to go see my dad and he died that afternoon.

461
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,040
He was gone by 2 p.m.

462
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:43,560
That same day, same day. Yeah. I saw him, left him there and he passed away about three

463
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:53,520
hours later. Wow. Such a gift that I recognized, Oh, what I now have the gift of that razor

464
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:59,840
sharp memory of that moment with my dad before he was gone. So I really, it seemed small

465
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,920
in the documentary she was talking about. It was really big to me. I thought, wow, I

466
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:10,480
get how big that is to her. Cause it really puts a pin in some things, you know? So that's

467
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,400
it. That's where that documentary ends. I'd love for you to share. I know you have some

468
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:21,080
notes on their approach and kind of how the documentary was made. And I'd love for you

469
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,600
to dig into a little bit of that if you want to.

470
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,520
Now I did in the credits, they announced that his brother had died this year. He did. Yeah.

471
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,160
Has that always been there? If they added that.

472
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,520
I have to believe they added it. Right. And while it came out in March and I think he,

473
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,880
I don't know when he passed, we'll have to look that up. I either didn't watch the credits

474
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:45,320
the first time I saw it or it wasn't there. I didn't remember seeing it. Yeah. I did just

475
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,880
hear. And I saw that Kelly Carlin talked about it on her, on her social. Yeah. She talked

476
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:55,400
about her uncle. She gave him a little tribute. He was a character, right? I would love to

477
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,040
know what that, what would that guy do with the rest of his life? After that car salesman

478
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,120
was on Ed Sullivan, what was the rest of the story?

479
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:12,240
No, I mean, I, that note on your father, I think really drives it home. Yeah. Yeah. At

480
00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:15,680
the end of the day, honestly, I felt this through line in this movie where there was

481
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:20,960
so much of her, of Kelly Carlin telling the story of these parents she loves so much,

482
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:28,240
but being really raw and honest about the troubles that they faced, both inadvertently

483
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:33,120
and of their own doing and how that really landed on them and inadvertently on her, you

484
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,360
know, but ultimately this like kind of, it's really a love letter.

485
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:47,800
Yeah. Like I said, I sat down not being a fan of George Carlin, knowing him and knowing

486
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:53,200
what I knew. And so I knew this wasn't going to be something that I was going to go, Oh

487
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,640
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. That I was going to learn. And I did learn a lot. I did

488
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:03,040
learn a lot about George Carlin other than the George Carlin. I knew a balding man with

489
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:10,240
long hair and a tie dye. Right. Saying words my parents would wash my mouth out with. So

490
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:15,840
if I said, so yeah. You're right. By the way, I just looked it up. He passed away in June

491
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:23,480
of this year. I mean of June, wait, it's that 2022. Yeah. 2022. Sorry. Um, I looked up Patrick

492
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,080
Carlin and it gave me George, of course he died in April of this year. And the, this

493
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:34,320
documentary came out in March. So you're right. They probably added it. Yeah. Well, I, yeah.

494
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:42,160
That would confirm. I did not watch the credits because I watched it past April or whenever.

495
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:47,880
Yeah. I, my notes on just the telling of it honestly were, you know, it's pretty deep

496
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:52,580
dive, which I think is the telltale sign of, of sort of Bonfiglio and Apatow's approach.

497
00:44:52,580 --> 00:45:00,020
I think right. They, I mean the, the shandling documentary is exhausted. They're both fantastically

498
00:45:00,020 --> 00:45:03,960
produced documentaries. I mean, they know what they're doing. I think you were saying

499
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:09,400
that you could have done with it being shorter. Do you feel like if you had, if you're a rabid

500
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,720
Carlin fan, do you feel like you would hold that attitude or do you feel like it's not

501
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:17,840
shaped by the fact that you weren't a rabid Carlin fan? Yeah. And I really try. I really

502
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:23,760
wanted to answer that question objectively, which one can't do because it's your opinion.

503
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:29,840
I, I almost felt like there was an obligation to make it two parts because this is George

504
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:37,840
Carlin, a forefather of the modern day comedian. So at the end you're seeing a lot of his standup,

505
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:44,600
right? I mean, you're watching big chunks of it where with Gary Shanley, you don't see

506
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:50,120
hardly any of his standup because he'd, you know, he had so much drama with his show and

507
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:55,840
then the tonight show battles and then Larry Sanders, all stuff that I am a Gary Shanley

508
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:04,200
and his comedy just really knocked out the park for me. I have a new found appreciation

509
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:10,520
for George Carlin that I did not have before. And just as a craftsman, just, yeah, just,

510
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:19,240
yeah, so intelligent and so spot on. Yeah. That I got that message probably without having

511
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:24,920
the need to see so much of his standup. Got it. But what I go back and see is standup

512
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:30,440
with if there was, was it in here? Probably not. So I mean, it's long, right? It's, it's

513
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,640
what almost four hours, isn't it? I want to say it's three, but I, three hours, an hour

514
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:40,160
and a half each. Yeah, I think so. 90 minutes apiece. So yeah, I don't know if making it

515
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:49,800
two parts makes it more accessible for the non-documentarian podcaster. But I, how do

516
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:56,320
I put this? Cause I give it a thumbs up. It just, it, I felt it meandered a little just

517
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:05,000
by showing his performances at the, at the length that they did. I do feel like also

518
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:12,360
potentially the Shanley Dock felt a little fresher because Judd had benefit of all those,

519
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:17,560
like his actual inner thoughts, just diaries that, you know, everything we got for the

520
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:23,840
most part. He worked with them, but also we, you know, it's very rare that you get to tell

521
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:31,080
a story of someone to build an homage to them and have so much access to their inner monologue

522
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:36,320
about their own life. And I think that that's why for me, the Shanley document and why I

523
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:42,920
have just watched it voluntarily without even having done this podcast three times already.

524
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:51,780
Just the exploration of a person's inner evolution is, and I feel like you get a little bit of

525
00:47:51,780 --> 00:47:55,600
that with George Carlin, but most of this is really externalized stuff. Yeah, it's true.

526
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,680
You get the one part of that where you get that is that Kelly Carlin is helping tell

527
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:04,400
the story and she is the insider in that club of three people. So you're getting this piece

528
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,760
that the public didn't get, but it's surrounded by a lot of stuff that the public already

529
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,920
got. And so maybe that's a part of it too, is I think the through line of, of the Shanley

530
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:19,560
Dock is just so much inner, his inner life really is there on the page, which I, you

531
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,760
know, listen, I used to be really guilty of reading my sister's diary. So that's probably

532
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:28,200
deeply satisfying to me. Plus you're a real, I mean, you love comp knowing you as long

533
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:34,240
as I've known you, you love comedy. That's, that's an important component. Yeah, that's

534
00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:41,400
true. And so a documentary about a comedian who's affected comedy as much as George Carlin

535
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:47,440
has, you know, that's you, you're going to see it. I take comedy for granted for better

536
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:52,160
for something. I'm saying I'm such a master at comedy that I don't need. Right. Right.

537
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:58,120
And when I do actually invest time in watching a standup or listening to it, I love it. Right.

538
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:05,280
And that's an art form I don't have. Right. Even though I think I'm a funny guy. He, it's

539
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,400
and you just, you don't want it when it's good, you don't want it to end. You don't

540
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:14,360
want them to leave the stage. Right. Yeah. I mean, I've probably watched every, well,

541
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:19,080
certain episodes of comedians and cars getting coffee just on repeat. Right. Just them talking

542
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:24,400
to each other, talking about comedy is just, it's such a, it's, it's comedy porn for me.

543
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,240
I'll just watch it and watch it and watch it and watch it. We have a friend who lives

544
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:33,320
out in Vegas and all he does is watch standup comedy over and over again. Oh God. Yeah.

545
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:40,520
Because it's his way of escaping. He can't watch the news. Okay. Sports teams fail him,

546
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,320
but comedy is always there for him and he's just over and over. Well, if you've made it

547
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:51,280
this far, we really appreciate you. This was a long one. We did choose to start with this

548
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:56,500
documentary and the next two that we'll unpack based on the fact that they're Emmy nominated.

549
00:49:56,500 --> 00:50:01,400
We didn't do all of the Emmy nominated documentaries, but when is the Emmys doing the Emmys are

550
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:06,120
going to be September 20th and these will come out. I won't put a date on it. So this

551
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:10,840
stays evergreen, but these will come out prior to that. Um, do you think it has a chance

552
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,760
of winning? I mean, of course I it's up against, I can tell you that it's up against the Tinder

553
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:21,640
Swindler. It's up against, which we will unpack indeed. And it's up against Lucy and Desi,

554
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:28,640
which is such a, what else, what else is it up against? It's up against, um, we feed people,

555
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,520
which is the documentary. And that's tough because that's a real important one. Right.

556
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:38,360
And gosh, I feel terrible. There's five nominees and I can't put my finger on that last one.

557
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:44,680
We as the documentary podcast, we should probably know this stuff. I mean, I did, but I don't

558
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:50,480
remember. Um, however, we will be covering the other two that I talked about the Tinder

559
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:55,600
Swindler and Lucy and Desi. We're not going to do all five. We will not do all five. You

560
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,400
know, there's just no time to do that many before then, but we will, we will do that.

561
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:03,160
And so they're going to be on the 20th. And so we're going to really focus. I really,

562
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,400
we really appreciate you guys hanging in there. If you got it, you made it this far. This

563
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:11,960
is a lengthy one. The next one is the Tinder Swindler be a little shorter. Um, but we appreciate

564
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:18,000
you. You can find Poddumentary, um, wherever you find podcasts and you listen to your podcasts,

565
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:24,480
we are on all of the platforms and we'd love it if you would become an Omnichannel fan

566
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:33,440
and go over to our website at www.poddumentary.co. Not com, but co. We are not poddumentary.com

567
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:41,000
because they wanted $10,000 for that URL and we are operating on the cheap. So, um, and

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then we also are on all of the social media platforms. So please find us there and follow

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us there, sign up for a newsletter and don't miss a thing. Um, going forward. And, uh,

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once again, I am Melanie dark and this is Jim Hudson and we are poddumentary, a podcast

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for documentaries. Poddumentary is executive produced by me, Melanie dark and produced

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by both Jim Hudson and I, with the support of our fearless production coordinator, Kate

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dark. The podcast is recorded and engineered at New Vine music studios in sunny Santa Monica.

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And our theme song is the 1950s movie intermission classic. Let's all go to the lobby license

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courtesy of film act studios. You can find more episodes of this podcast and smash that

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subscribe button at poddumentary.co that's poddumentary.co. We'd also love to hear your

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take on this documentary. You can use our website's recorded message feature to do that.

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And we might even feature your message in a future episode. If voicemail isn't your

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thing, you can shout out your comments, criticisms, or documentary requests on Instagram, Facebook

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and Tik TOK at at poddumentary and on Twitter at at poddumentary pod. If straight up old

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fashion emails, more your speed, drop us a line using hay at poddumentary.com. And if

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you've gotten this far, you're one of us. See you next time.